In 2015, a developer survey from the Worldwide Recreation Builders Affiliation discovered that 22% of respondents recognized as ladies. Virtually a decade later, in a similar survey by GDC, the determine had elevated solely barely to 25%.
However even when the percentages have barely shifted, have issues improved for ladies working in the industry over the previous decade, particularly since the darkish days of the Gamergate period? GamesIndustry.biz spoke to a few of the sector’s most influential ladies about how they’ve seen attitudes change and – crucially – what steps are nonetheless wanted to encourage and retain feminine expertise.
Frankie Ward (freelance presenter for gaming and esports)
“I believe in the basic gaming sense, Gamergate nonetheless felt contemporary in everybody’s minds,” says Frankie Ward about 2015, when she was producing protection of the League of Legends Worlds Quarter-Finals for the BBC. Ward has brazenly written about the psychological toll the gaming industry has taken on her and about the challenges of being a woman in esports, highlighting how she confronted feedback concerning her look, problematic language, and loneliness.
Ward says it was frequent to see all-male presenter line-ups at esports occasions, even when there have been a number of ladies’s groups for games like Counter-Strike. She thinks there’s much more feminine visibility now than a decade in the past, however challenges stay. “Resisting our presence in games, or having an idealised concept of how a lady ought to seem in a recreation, is being pushed to the forefront by algorithms that bait for engagement and do not inform the full story,” Ward says.
“As for esports, I have seen a few absolutely male line-ups on broadcast not too long ago, however they’re very a lot the exception. Simply take a look at a Valorant VCT broadcast to see ladies main how tales are informed on display screen. Nevertheless, it’s nonetheless laborious – perhaps even more durable – to be vocal as a lady. There is a worry of cancellation, being seen as troublesome for sharing your opinion and that you just may danger enterprise relationships. This makes it laborious to try to implement constructive change.”
Ward, who has had two youngsters since 2022, additionally thinks the industry wants to contemplate how to make the atmosphere extra viable for working moms.
“Sometimes, I am given little or no discover earlier than jobs, which implies childcare may be a difficulty”
Frankie Ward
“I’ve skilled being closely pregnant on digicam and having to work out my very own schedule to verify I wasn’t working 16-hour days,” she explains. “Sometimes, I am given little or no discover earlier than jobs, which implies childcare may be a difficulty too. Males turn into fathers, miss one occasion and head again to work. Ladies turn into moms after which do not know if they will miss an occasion for worry of not making a return.
“I used to be scriptwriting for a shopper 5 days after my first child was born, and after my second, I used to be doing a sponsored stream two weeks after she was born. I’ve pumped breast milk on digicam on a number of exhibits whereas internet hosting or doing interviews as a result of there hasn’t been time for me to do it earlier than going stay or throughout – and even to eat, so I might be producing milk and dealing on an excessive calorie deficit. It has been my option to work, and I am grateful for these alternatives, however I additionally surprise how many roles I’m not thought of for as a result of I’ve ‘taken it simpler’ after my second youngster and am not as seen.”
Brenda Romero (CEO and recreation director, Romero Games)
A decade in the past, recreation designer Brenda Romero had not too long ago moved to Galway in Eire along with her husband John Romero to arrange Romero Games. “I recall a way of optimism then,” she says.
“Throughout these ten years, we managed to place into place a number of household and people-friendly insurance policies, like absolutely paid maternity depart, menstrual wellness depart, a clothes allowance, and menopause depart,” Romero continues. “On the recreation facet, studios, together with ours, have been getting issues funded, and there gave the impression to be cash for area of interest games, too, supplied their budgets have been small.
“At the identical time, marginalized people in the industry have been simply coming by means of Gamergate. That was a horrible time for many. Whereas it galvanized marginalized devs to help each other loudly and proudly, it additionally brought on lots of people to go away the industry. We nonetheless really feel the waves of Gamergate immediately.”
When requested if she’s famous adjustments in the final decade, Romero says it is “been a pendulum.”
“I felt as if substantial progress had been remodeled the final ten years,” she says. “Nevertheless, the present political local weather has made conversations round the significance of variety, equality, and inclusivity a lightning rod. We’re based mostly in Europe, the place these protections are nonetheless considered favourably and guarded, however since the recreation industry is so US-centric, one can’t keep away from the conversations. “
“I believe at this level, the one factor the industry wants greater than something is jobs,” Romero says. “No matter gender.”
Alison Lacy (COO, Radical Forge)
“Once I arrived, there have been about six ladies there, together with me,” recollects Alison Lacy of her first stint working in the games industry, at Sony Laptop Leisure Europe in the early 2010s. “My basic expertise was tremendous constructive, just about everybody I labored alongside was a beautiful colleague, and I used to be made to really feel actually welcome.
“Sadly, there was one particular person who didn’t appear to know how to behave appropriately, and to my deep disappointment, inappropriate and admittedly unacceptable behaviour (fortunately not directed at me) was typically swept below the rug, regardless of complaints and so-called investigations. This contributed to my resolution to maneuver out of the industry, nevertheless it positively wasn’t the foremost motive. The important thing issue for me was that I could not see a transparent pathway to develop my profession, and I wasn’t positive that the industry was sufficiently secure.”
Lacy returned to the games industry in 2020 and feels issues have changed “considerably for the higher,” however highlights that the “stability state of affairs has solely gotten worse.”
“There does appear to be much more dialogue about variety of all types, which is nice, in addition to extra avenues for help and mentorship for ladies,” she explains. “Definitely, in the studios I’ve labored in since returning, I have not skilled any sexism or harassment, however I used to be upset that the gender cut up hadn’t moved on very a lot, notably in engineering roles and roles at a senior stage.
“Though there are some unbelievable ladies in main roles proper now, there actually aren’t sufficient, and I additionally get the feeling we’re missing a stable pipeline by way of how many ladies are coming by means of organisations who we’d need to be in management roles in 5 years’ time.
“The prevailing archetype of the ‘artistic genius’ or ‘robust chief’ in games remains to be solidly male”
Alison Lacy
“I really feel we nonetheless have a protracted approach to go as an industry by way of good working practices, industrial acumen, intelligent organisational design, budgets for studying and improvement and in the end correctly numerous groups – we’re nonetheless actually immature.
“I might additionally be aware that the prevailing archetype of the ‘artistic genius’ or ‘robust chief’ in games remains to be solidly male and usually allowed to behave any means they like. Though I’m seeing indicators of this altering.”
Lacy believes these in energy have to stroll the stroll, quite than merely discuss the discuss. “I wish to know whether or not males in senior management positions really suppose that encouraging and retaining extra ladies issues,” Lacy says. “In fact I do know some that do, however I have not seen an enormous quantity of proof that it is being proactively pursued at a strategic stage in studios – and till those that have the energy to impact change do perceive or settle for the extent to which a extra numerous workforce and management may affect their companies I do not suppose we’ll see any better tempo of change.”
Kimberley Turner (co-CEO, Double Eleven)
When Kimberley Turner began in the games industry, she felt “there weren’t actually any ladies in any respect, or only a few ladies.”
“I used to joke that games industry conferences have been the solely time males would find yourself queueing for the rest room as a substitute of girls,” Turner recollects. However she believes the industry has “changed rather a lot in recent times”. “The variety of feminine attendees at industry conferences has skyrocketed from what it was beforehand, which is absolutely fantastic to see.”
“Extra broadly, the industry is much better at recognising and celebrating ladies. Most occasions guarantee a various vary of each women and men now talking and instructing, and setting an ideal instance for these to come back. In fact, there’s all the time extra to do, however the progress made to date suggests a major shift in the final decade.”
Nevertheless, Turner believes that to encourage and retain extra ladies, particularly youthful expertise, the industry wants “better feminine illustration at each stage of studios.”
“Visibility issues: younger folks cannot aspire to what they can not see,” she explains. “Many develop up with out industry function fashions or household networks that present games as a viable profession. […] This insecurity, aspiration, and entry makes it more durable for ladies to image themselves in the industry.”
“With out seen, relatable function fashions, many ladies nonetheless really feel the industry is not for them”
Kimberley Turner
“The industry should additionally create higher pathways for ladies into management. Many depart because of inadequate flexibility or help throughout key life levels, notably round caregiving.”
Turner says Double Eleven is doing its bit by means of its early careers programme, an emphasis on work–life stability, and powerful feminine illustration in management roles. She provides that it is not about “hiring based mostly on gender,” and extra about guaranteeing “the finest folks can thrive, no matter background.”
“However with out seen, relatable function fashions, many ladies nonetheless really feel the industry is not for them.”
Cat Channon (communications guide)
“A decade in the past, we have been in the midst of Gamergate,” recollects Cat Channon, who has overseen campaigns for franchises like Star Wars, Harry Potter, and Fortnite. “Many people hoped [it] could be an inflection level for the industry: that, in recognising a few of the poisonous behaviour beforehand nurtured and given secure harbour in our industry, there could be a cloth change.
“The truth is that on-line trolling was simply the tip of the iceberg. We have been nonetheless very a lot a boys’ membership, and even inside massive companies, sexism, misogyny, pay inequality, and abusive behaviours in direction of ladies have been tolerated.”
Channon says that over the previous decade, there’s been “tangible change” in the industry, with extra formalised insurance policies in place to help ladies in the office.
“Transparency round pay inequality and extra information to quantify the lack of illustration and highlight gender inequality allows us to trace the progress we’re making,” Channon explains. “Extra information quantifying the unfavorable industrial and cultural impacts of a scarcity of variety in the office additionally helps us perceive why, in addition to the place we have to make change.”
“There’s nonetheless a scarcity of gender variety in video games, notably in management”
Cat Channon
However Channon believes there are nonetheless adjustments to be made. “There’s nonetheless a scarcity of gender variety in video games, notably in management,” she says. “We nonetheless see ladies’s careers on maintain/pushed again relative to their male friends on account of maternity depart. Our insurance policies round ladies’s well being care, particularly fertility remedies, miscarriage, stillbirth, and menopause, are usually not the place we’d like them to be, and we’re solely simply beginning to see information on the means by which the pandemic was notably detrimental to ladies. In the media, we’d like extra numerous voices telling our tales and extra precisely representing the variety of our gamers.
“In a polarising political local weather, we’re already beginning to see the detrimental affect on DEI initiatives. As jobs turn into scarcer and pressures fiercer on hiring managers for expertise to hit the floor operating, we’ll should be ever extra conscious to make sure we do not revert to an underrepresentation in the office.”
Kat Osman (workforce director, Lick PR)
Kat Osman says she was “already noticing a change” in the variety of ladies becoming a member of the industry again in 2015, and she or he has seen that development proceed. Total, she believes the industry is “extra inclusive” now.
“I’ve observed extra ladies on editorial groups in a few of the larger shops particularly, and while there are extra ladies in improvement too, it is nonetheless far from being a fair cut up,” Osman explains. “It is a step in the proper course, nevertheless it’s nonetheless taking time.” Osman provides that “extra ladies are eager about tech and video games” these days, mirrored in a latest ESA report that discovered 48% of online game gamers are ladies.
“There has been a slight lower in the abuse ladies get on-line, however sadly, it is nonetheless very a lot on the market,” Osman says. Nevertheless, she thinks that attitudes are slowly altering thanks partly to schooling. “As a few of the elder guard and ‘outdated boys’ numbers are reducing, and ladies’s rights and equality are being mentioned and taught extra, together with variety, these are a few of the components I believe have to proceed as a way to encourage and retain extra ladies in our industry.”
Leigh Alexander (freelance narrative designer)
Leigh Alexander began running a blog about video games in 2007, and by 2015, she’d already “seen some shit.”
“Once I began, I knew perhaps two or three different ladies in media, and it was not unusual for us to attend PR occasions and demos at strip golf equipment,” Alexander explains. “It was very a lot a male-dominated house,” she says, the place younger ladies would undergo “each form of unfavorable expertise attainable.”
“However the 2010s noticed the rise of an more and more numerous indie scene, and as instruments to make games grew to become extra democratic, there was what felt to me like an enormous revolution in who may make games and what they might be about.” Alexander believes the rise of Gamergate in 2014 was a “direct response” to the risk posed by this “new texture” of the industry.
“Individuals who wished to be catered to as a particular geek boy advertising and marketing class have been now having to share the house, they usually did not like that,” she explains.
Reflecting on the present state of the industry, Alexander says it generally feels “like these folks ‘gained’,” notably with the roll again of DEI initiatives in some locations.
“It was not unusual for us to attend PR occasions and demos at strip golf equipment”
Leigh Alexander
Nonetheless, some issues have changed for the higher. “Once I go searching, I do not essentially see an area that excludes feminine gamers, or feminine designers, in the means it did once I was younger,” Alexander explains. “I work with a number of ladies, so I may be extra genuine. It was I felt unable to go on a video name with out hair and make-up accomplished, however now I can go on in a hoodie and headphones like some other recreation developer, and nobody will say my pure hair is unprofessional.
“Once I discuss to folks of their twenties immediately, all types of individuals get pleasure from a minimum of one online game, together with ladies and ladies of all ages. However whereas the recreation industry remains to be an especially worrying, polarized, and sometimes merciless place to work, I not really feel that my gender places me at a drawback or makes me unsafe.”
Nevertheless, she sees the industry’s “expertise retention disaster” and fixed layoffs in recent times as the largest risk. “When the industry is hostile to everybody, this implies the most marginalized individuals are going to get pushed out first, particularly black and queer ladies.”
Jennifer Hale (actor)
A decade in the past, Jennifer Hale – the voice behind Mass Impact’s feminine Commander Shephard – observed “issues have been starting to show” for ladies. “Mass Impact had come out, and the concept of a robust, equal feminine lead in a recreation was starting to take maintain,” Hale says. “There was nonetheless a number of objectification, particularly visually, and a niche in recognizing the energy of the feminine gaming group, however issues have been starting to shift.”
Hale has voiced an extended roster of iconic feminine characters, together with Overwatch’s Ashe and Metroid Prime’s Samus, and believes there are “an increasing number of highly effective feminine roles” in gaming immediately.
“That being stated, the undeniable fact that we nonetheless be aware that they exist like a novelty signifies that there is positively room for development,” she continues. “For my part, the identical may be stated for illustration in casting. There’s nonetheless a journey to journey, however we have begun to make adjustments, which is heartening.”
These adjustments, Hale says, embody “much less objectification, extra reasonable portrayals of girls, and a wider illustration of what a lady is outlined as in gaming.” The actor says these adjustments are “unbelievable” to see and she or he seems ahead to the dev group making additional efforts like this in the future. “I would not presume to inform them how to maneuver ahead, however I absolutely help that evolution,” she says.
Maria Sayans (CEO, Ustwo Games)
Maria Sayans has labored in the games industry for 25 years, having began in advertising and marketing at EA in the UK.
“Exterior of promoting, HR, finance, and so forth, there weren’t actually that many ladies, and fairly often you’ll be the solely lady in a room,” Sayans says. “However EA had some fierce ladies again then, trailblazers and alter makers who have been unbelievable function fashions.
“We needed to be actually powerful if we wished to develop in the firm, we needed to put up with a number of bullshit. Like the male colleague who imitated a cat combat when a feminine colleague and myself bought into an argument in a gathering, the boss who took credit score for my work and handed it on as his personal, or the a number of occasions I needed to cope with colleagues making undesirable passes, and having to hold that embarrassment, together with the HR Director who felt the want to tell me in a one-to-one assembly that he was in an open marriage. We made allies, shared tales and lifted one another up for the most half.”
Sayans believes the industry has “typically improved for ladies” over the final decade.
“The overwhelming majority of recreation firms, and the industry at massive, have turn into extra mature {and professional}, and so folks know what’s and isn’t OK behaviour, and staff really feel typically supported by constructions inside their firms,” she explains. “Many excessive profile instances at Riot, Activision, and Ubisoft have helped guarantee the requirements are increased.”
Sayans notes, nevertheless, that there is a rise in the variety of freelancers in the industry, who’re much less protected. “We have to hold a watch out for how this a part of the industry develops to verify the identical help and requirements can be found to them.”
“It’s nonetheless the case that ladies must work more durable to progress in the industry”
Maria Sayans
She additionally thinks we’d like extra ladies in management roles. “Ladies are much less more likely to be trusted to run a studio or be a recreation director, and women-led begin ups wrestle to lift funding far more usually,” she says. “On the whole, it’s nonetheless the case that ladies must work more durable to progress in the industry. Their competence is questioned extra usually, and they’re much less more likely to be included in formal and casual networking occasions. Notably at senior govt occasions, or funding occasions, panels and networking nonetheless appear to be a person’s recreation.
“With ladies now making up near half of all avid gamers, it’s outrageous that we’re nonetheless an industry run predominantly by males.”
She thinks extra must be accomplished. “Occasion organisers and audio system have to have excessive requirements for numerous illustration on levels. It’s laborious to seek out ladies to talk [at events] if all you realize is males, so sure, you’re going to must make an effort. We additionally want targeted funding alternatives to help ladies founders and women-led organisations in the industry that transcend the angel/indie house (though these are nice).”
Sayans additionally believes that “true equality” can’t be achieved the ultimate parental depart rights for women and men and inexpensive childcare. “So long as males are usually not supported and inspired to take equal parental depart, you can see ladies bearing the weight of that of their careers,” she explains. “And on account of delaying having youngsters, ladies in games are paying a fertility tax versus their male colleagues.”
Laura Kate Dale (accessibility guide and games reporter)
In 2015, Laura Kate Dale was employed as a full-time games critic, and recollects it being a “actually bizarre time to be a lady” in the games industry, with the impacts of Gamergate palpable.
“It was a time when an growing variety of shops wished freelancers to put in writing private perspective items about their experiences with gaming, however in lots of instances have been both bored with or not ready for what it will imply to guard these writers if these items drew the ire of the on-line proper,” Dale explains.
“Being a 12 months into this spike in ‘ladies do not belong in gaming’ discourse, 2015 counterintuitively had its positives. We have been seeing initiatives popping as much as spotlight ladies’s achievements in the industry, and it was fairly frequent to see women-focused networking occasions pop up that have been nice as somebody nonetheless new to the industry. It was additionally earlier than the present wave of anti-trans sentiment had actually began to take maintain, and in order a trans lady, I felt fairly welcome and secure in these women-in-gaming-focused areas.”
She felt that “extra males have been seeing their blind spots and making an attempt to regulate for them,” though it was nonetheless a tricky time. “I bought doxxed greater than as soon as in these early days, and bought some fairly gross behaviour from males, together with my friends, nevertheless it felt constructive that we have been acknowledging the rot that had bubbled up.”
Dale says that issues are higher immediately, despite the fact that the “Gamergate period anti-woman sentiment” remains to be round. Now, it manifests as “fury at feminine characters who aren’t thought of engaging sufficient, anger at non-white ladies or queer ladies being employed, anger at ladies portrayed as robust or violent in fiction, and anger at the existence of cultural sensitivity consultants employed in roles decreasing unfavorable tropes in narratives,” she explains.
“I bought doxxed greater than as soon as in these early days, and bought some fairly gross behaviour from males”
Laura Kate Dale
Nonetheless, she has been inspired by the improve in the variety of full-time feminine recreation writers in the UK. “It feels immediately much less such as you’re alone when offended males shout at you for daring to exist in ‘their’ house, and extra like they’re shouting futility at a wave that has sufficient momentum to not be stopped so simply.”
Even so, as a trans lady, she says her expertise is blended. “World transphobia is on the rise, and I’ve to be extra cautious about my security in women-focused areas like networking occasions, however there’s more room career-wise for my perspective to be thought of. Extra gaming studios are experimenting with the illustration of trans ladies of their narratives, and alternatives to seek the advice of on these representations and be listened to early in manufacturing are enhancing, too.”
Dale believes that the industry must do extra to battle the anti-women sentiment round feminine characters. “We will not permit that small viewers with a megaphone to talk for the viewers as an entire,” Dale says. “We want extra males in the industry to talk actively and vocally about their disagreement with this small, offended vocal minority, and counter stability their narrative.”
She additionally thinks misogynistic attitudes nonetheless persist. “We want extra help to have the ability to spotlight sexist members of our industry’s ‘outdated guard’, whose sexism is much less direct and aggressive however nonetheless creates roadblocks to profession development in sectors of the industry.”
Lucy James (lead producer, GameSpot/co-host, Mates Per Second)
Lucy James says she feels “enormously fortunate” to have come up in the industry when and the place she did. “I had simply began working full-time with the GameSpot UK workforce, and never solely was I mentored by a bunch of skilled on-camera personalities, however as a younger producer, I used to be regarded out for,” James says.
“I used to be lucky that being a lady had no affect (that I used to be conscious of) on my profession, nevertheless it clearly wasn’t all excellent.
“I might labored with sure folks on earlier jobs who had been too handsy or inappropriate, obtained one too many unsolicited dick pics, and would sometimes catch a stray in a YouTube remark or tweet. I used to be fortunate to be supported at the time, nevertheless it felt like something exterior of my bubble of associates was the place the hazard lay, so to talk.”
James believes that social media has supplied the largest change over the previous decade. “There is definitely a ‘want’ to be seen for those who work in sure roles,” she explains. Nevertheless, she thinks moderation instruments are nonetheless less than scratch.
“‘Simply block and transfer on’ is the last item I need to hear when an individual I do not know is making a number of accounts to doxx and publish horrible issues or threaten my household and me,” James says. She thinks that the police don’t take credible threats severely sufficient, “like a man who stakes out Gamescom, sending movies of girls who look somewhat such as you till you come exterior to fulfill him.” Total, she finds it irritating that moderation and security instruments “nonetheless have a methods to go.”
Dr Marie-Claire Isaaman (CEO, Ladies in Games)
A decade in the past, ladies have been “usually current solely in token numbers” in the games industry, says Dr Marie-Claire Isaaman, who labored in games schooling till turning into CEO and co-director of the non-profit organisation Ladies in Games in 2016. “Even for these of us working behind the scenes, the message was usually implicit: you have been welcome, nevertheless it would not be straightforward.
“This meant that for many ladies, pushing into improvement, manufacturing, management, or seen roles required doubling down – not simply on expertise and professionalism, however on resilience in the face of indifference or outright bias. Many ladies left the industry, or averted making use of in the first place, as a result of it felt like a small, unique membership, and the unwritten guidelines favoured insiders.”
The shortage of help for ladies resulted in a vicious circle, she says, the place fewer ladies meant fewer function fashions. She thinks there have been “indicators of progress” over the previous decade, however “the change is uneven, fragile, and infrequently superficial.”
“On one stage, the viewers panorama has shifted,” Isaaman explains. “The newest analysis from Bryter exhibits that ladies and ladies now signify 46% of all avid gamers worldwide. And their gaming habits present the breadth and depth of their engagement: many repeatedly play action-adventure, shooters, and battle royales – simply as usually as males do.
“The darkish facet of the analysis exhibits that 59% of women and girls in on-line play areas are coping with verbal abuse, harassment, exclusion, or worse. That determine is down in comparison with Bryter’s 2023 report, however the abuse ladies and ladies expertise contains the 26% who’ve been sexually harassed and the 12% who’ve obtained really harrowing rape threats.”
Isaaman additionally laments the “tiny” improve in the variety of ladies employed in the industry. “Let’s face it, a rise of only a share level or two over a decade will not be a significant transformation, and once we take a look at ladies in management roles in games, the state of affairs is even bleaker. In the meantime, proper now, the socio-economic and technological upheavals are making a precarious second. Financial pressures, funding squeezes, and industry volatility – in addition to the rolling again of DEI initiatives in some components of the world – danger widening the gender hole if the sector retreats from its commitments quite than strengthens them.”
“Let’s face it, a rise of only a share level or two over a decade will not be a significant transformation”
Dr Marie-Claire Isaaman
Isaaman says the industry faces structural challenges that may require systemic, sustained motion to deal with, a part of which needs to be extra funding in security and inclusion for gamers. “Solely a couple of third of girls really feel that present reporting and moderation processes are efficient. We want sturdy, industry-wide requirements for moderation, harassment reporting, swift penalties for abuse, and community-management practices that defend marginalised gamers.”
As well as, Isaaman believes that we have to spend money on ladies’s profession development, mentorship, management pipelines, and retention, particularly in turbulent financial occasions. “A workforce share of round 23–24% will not be sufficient.”
There’s additionally extra work to be accomplished with regards to the games themselves. Isaaman factors out that ladies make up almost half of all avid gamers, however nonetheless “seldom see themselves represented.” She needs to see extra funding in inclusive storytelling, numerous improvement groups, and design practices that “do not assume a male default.”
She additionally believes the industry must do higher at acknowledging the intersectionality of womanhood.
“The experiences of girls are usually not uniform,” she says. “Ladies of color, LGBTQ+ ladies, and ladies of various socio-economic backgrounds all face compounded obstacles and dangers. We all know that when identities intersect, harassment, exclusion, and attrition rise dramatically. Addressing gender inequity can’t succeed with out intentionally addressing these intersecting inequalities.”